NVIDIA's Fermi: Architected for Tesla, 3 Billion Transistors in 2010
by Anand Lal Shimpi on September 30, 2009 12:00 AM EST- Posted in
- GPUs
The RV770 Lesson (or The GT200 Story)
It took NVIDIA a while to give us an honest response to the RV770. At first it was all about CUDA and PhsyX. RV770 didn't have it, so we shouldn't be recommending it; that was NVIDIA's stance.
Today, it's much more humble.
Ujesh is wiling to take total blame for GT200. As manager of GeForce at the time, Ujesh admitted that he priced GT200 wrong. NVIDIA looked at RV670 (Radeon HD 3870) and extrapolated from that to predict what RV770's performance would be. Obviously, RV770 caught NVIDIA off guard and GT200 was priced much too high.
Ujesh doesn't believe NVIDIA will make the same mistake with Fermi.
Jonah, unwilling to let Ujesh take all of the blame, admitted that engineering was partially at fault as well. GT200 was the last chip NVIDIA ever built at 65nm - there's no excuse for that. The chip needed to be at 55nm from the get-go, but NVIDIA had been extremely conservative about moving to new manufacturing processes too early.
It all dates back to NV30, the GeForce FX. It was a brand new architecture on a bleeding edge manufacturing process, 130nm at the time, which ultimately lead to its delay. ATI pulled ahead with the 150nm Radeon 9700 Pro and NVIDIA vowed never to make that mistake again.
With NV30, NVIDIA was too eager to move to new processes. Jonah believes that GT200 was an example of NVIDIA swinging too far in the other direction; NVIDIA was too conservative.
The biggest lesson RV770 taught NVIDIA was to be quicker to migrate to new manufacturing processes. Not NV30 quick, but definitely not as slow as GT200. Internal policies are now in place to ensure this.
Architecturally, there aren't huge lessons to be learned from RV770. It was a good chip in NVIDIA's eyes, but NVIDIA isn't adjusting their architecture in response to it. NVIDIA will continue to build beefy GPUs and AMD appears committed to building more affordable ones. Both companies are focused on building more efficiently.
Of Die Sizes and Transitions
Fermi and Cypress are both built on the same 40nm TSMC process, yet they differ by nearly 1 billion transistors. Even the first generation Larrabee will be closer in size to Cypress than Fermi, and it's made at Intel's state of the art 45nm facilities.
What you're seeing is a significant divergence between the graphics companies, one that I expect will continue to grow in the near term.
NVIDIA's architecture is designed to address its primary deficiency: the company's lack of a general purpose microprocessor. As such, Fermi's enhancements over GT200 address that issue. While Fermi will play games, and NVIDIA claims it will do so better than the Radeon HD 5870, it is designed to be a general purpose compute machine.
ATI's approach is much more cautious. While Cypress can run DirectX Compute and OpenCL applications (the former faster than any NVIDIA GPU on the market today), ATI's use of transistors was specifically targeted to run the GPU's killer app today: 3D games.
Intel's take is the most unique. Both ATI and NVIDIA have to support their existing businesses, so they can't simply introduce a revolutionary product that sacrifices performance on existing applications for some lofty, longer term goal. Intel however has no discrete GPU business today, so it can.
Larrabee is in rough shape right now. The chip is buggy, the first time we met it it wasn't healthy enough to even run a 3D game. Intel has 6 - 9 months to get it ready for launch. By then, the Radeon HD 5870 will be priced between $299 - $349, and Larrabee will most likely slot in $100 - $150 cheaper. Fermi is going to be aiming for the top of the price brackets.
The motivation behind AMD's "sweet spot" strategy wasn't just die size, it was price. AMD believed that by building large, $600+ GPUs, it didn't service the needs of the majority of its customers quickly enough. It took far too long to make a $199 GPU from a $600 one - quickly approaching a year.
Clearly Fermi is going to be huge. NVIDIA isn't disclosing die sizes, but if we estimate that a 40% higher transistor count results in a 40% larger die area then we're looking at over 467mm^2 for Fermi. That's smaller than GT200 and about the size of G80; it's still big.
I asked Jonah if that meant Fermi would take a while to move down to more mainstream pricepoints. Ujesh stepped in and said that he thought I'd be pleasantly surprised once NVIDIA is ready to announce Fermi configurations and price points. If you were NVIDIA, would you say anything else?
Jonah did step in to clarify. He believes that AMD's strategy simply boils down to targeting a different price point. He believes that the correct answer isn't to target a lower price point first, but rather build big chips efficiently. And build them so that you can scale to different sizes/configurations without having to redo a bunch of stuff. Putting on his marketing hat for a bit, Jonah said that NVIDIA is actively making investments in that direction. Perhaps Fermi will be different and it'll scale down to $199 and $299 price points with little effort? It seems doubtful, but we'll find out next year.
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Moricon - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
Silicondoc you are a big GREEN C*OK lol it even rhymes!Alberto - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
The GPGPU market is very little...doesn't make good revenue for a company. Moreover the sw development is HARD and expensive; this piece of silicon seems like a NVidia mistake: too big to manifacture for a graphic card, nice (on the paper) for a market of niche.In comparison Amd is working far better and Intel too with Larrabee.
Hard times at the orizon for Nvidia, it has a monster with very low manufacturing yields, but nothing feasible for the consumer arena.
A prediction ? AMD will have the lead of graphic cards in the next years.....
SiliconDoc - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
The yields are fine, apparently you caught wind of the ati pr crew who was caught out lying.If not, you just made your standard idiot assumption, because the actual FACTS concerning the these tow latest 40nm chips is that ati yields have been very poor, and nvidias have been good.
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Nice try, but you're wrong.
" Scalable Informatics has been selling NVidia Tesla (C1060) units as part of our Pegasus-GPU and Pegasus-GPU+Cell units. Several issues have arisen with Tesla availability and pricing.
First issue: Tesla units are currently on a 4-8 week back order. We have no control over this, all other vendors have the exact same issues. NVidia is not shipping Tesla in any appreciable volumes.
Our workaround: Until NVidia is able to ramp its volume to appropriate levels, Scalable Informatics will provide loaner GTX260 cards in place of the Tesla units. Once the Tesla units ship, we will exchange the GTX260 units for the Tesla units.
Update: 1-September-2009
Tesla C1060 units are now readily available for Pegasus and JackRabbit systems.
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NOW THE PRICING
" Scalable Informatics JackRabbit systems are available in deskside and rackmount configurations, starting at 8 TB (TeraByte) in size, with individual systems ranging from 8TB to 96TB, and storage clusters up to 62 PB (PetaByte), with most systems starting price under $1USD/GB."
So, an 8TB system is 8 grand, 96TB 96 grand, and a 62 petabyte in the approaching one MILLION range.
http://www.scalableinformatics.com/catalog">http://www.scalableinformatics.com/catalog
Yes, not much there. LOLOLOL
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POWER SAVINGS replacing massive cpu computers
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The BNP Paribas (finance) study showed a $250,000 500 core cluster (37.5 kW) replaced with a 2 S1070 Tesla cluster at a cost of $24,000 and using only 2.8 kW. A study with oil and gas company Hess showed an $8M 2000-socket system (1.2Mw) being replaced by a 32 S1070 cluster for $400,000 and using only 45 kW in 31x less space. If you are running a CUDA-enabled application, or have access to the source code (you’ll need that to take advantage of the GPUs), you can clearly get significant performance gains for certain applications.
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about 4 TFLOPS of peak from four C1060 cards (or 3 C1060 and a Quadro) and plugs into a standard wall outlet. Word from some of those selling this system is that sales have been mostly in the academic space and a little slower than expected, possibly due to the initially high ($10k+) price point. Prices have started to come down, however, and that might help sales. You can buy these today from vendors like Dell, Colfax, AMAX, Microway, and Penguin (for a partial list see NVIDIA’s PS product page).
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And, of course you predict amd will have the lead in videocards the next few years. LOL
bhwahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
thebeastie - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
Personally I think NVidia has made the best bet it can make with supporting more Telsa style stuff, and in general just building a bigger madder GPU.The fact is that there aren't many good PC games around, I would say NVidia made some good sales out of Crysis by it self, people building a new PC with that game in mind having a very large weight on GPU choice.
But it is just not enough. L4D 2 is the next big title but being on the Vavle engine everyone know you will get 100fps on a GTX 275.
The other twist is that Steam has probably been one of the best things for gaming on the PC it just makes things 10 times easier.
Manually patching games etc is a killer for all but those who are gaming enthusiasts.
Dante80 - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
GT300 looks like a revolutionary product as far as HPC and GPU Computing are concerned. Happy times ahead, for professionals and scientists at least...Regarding the 3d gaming market though, things are not as optimistic. GT300 performance is rather irrelevant, due to the fact that nvidia currently does not have a speedy answer for the discrete, budget, mainstream and lower performance segments. Price projections aside, the GT300 will get the performance crown, and act as a marketing boost for the rest of the product line. Customers in the higher performance and enthusiast markets that have brand loyalty towards the greens are locked anyway. And yes, thats still irrelevant.
Remember ppl, the profit and bulk in the market is in a price segment nvidia does not even try to address currently. We can only hope that the greens can get sth more than GT200 rebranding/respins out for the lower market segments. Fast. Ideally, the new architecture should be able to be downscaled easily. Lets hope for that, or its definitely rough times ahead for nvidia. Especially if you look closely at the 5850 performance per $ ratio, as well as the juniper projections. And add in the economy crisis, shifting consumer focus, the difference of performance needed by sotware and performance given by the hw, the locking of TFT resolutions and heat/power consumption concerns.
With AMD getting out of the warehouses the whole 5XXX family in under 6months (I think thats a first for the GPU industry, I might be wrong though), the greens are in a rather tight spot atm. GT200 respins wont save the round, GT300 @500$++ wont save the round, and tesla wont certainly save the round (just look at sales and profit in the last years concerning the HPC-GPUCU segments).
Lets hope for the best, its in our interest as consumers anyway..
blindbox - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist.The Adventures of SiliconDoc.
NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250: A Rebadged 9800 GTX+
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3523">http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3523
ATI Radeon HD 4890 vs. NVIDIA GeForce GTX 275
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3539...">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3539...
AMD's Radeon HD 5870: Bringing About the Next Generation Of GPUs
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3643...">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3643...
The Radeon HD 4870 1GB: The Card to Get
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3415">http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3415
Overclocking Extravaganza: GTX 275's Complex Characteristics
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3575">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3575
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 295: Leading the Pack
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3498&p...">http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3498&p...
Faster Graphics For Lower Prices: ATI Radeon HD 4770
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3553...">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3553...
Of course, check the comments.
I couldn't find his comments in the 4870x2 review, nor the pre-DX10 days.
tamalero - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
this guy is such a epic trainwreck....I actually wonder if this guy is the ANGRY GERMAN KID on disguise ( check the video on youtube lol )
Docket - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
Yep SiliconDoc has been making same nonsense noise elsewhere as well and been banned at least from one other site (google silicondocs):http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?p=203896...">http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?p=203896...
Here extract from bit-tech staff:
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OK time for you to go, you contribute nothing to the community other than trolling, bye bye.
I'm leaving all your posts here for evidence that you're a complete lunatic, but I'm glad you realise that you do need help. It's the first step.
I recommend checking out Nvidia forums and posting there - you'll feel more at home.
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S/He is obviously retarded person. I mean initially it was "fun" to read but now I'm just so bored with this s*it and it is actually interfering while trying to read comments from other readers. Maybe that is the whole point of the noise; to side track any meaningful conversation.
I vote silicondoc to banned from this site (or give me an ability to filter all the post from and related to this user)... anyone else?
SiliconDoc - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
It seems to me, you wish to remain absolutely blind with your fuming hatred and emotional issues, let's see WHAT was supposedly said at your link:" Originally Posted by wuyanxu
nVidia is trying very hard to NOT loose this round, they've priced this too aggressively, surely there's some cooperate law on this? "
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Here we see the brain deranged red rooster, who has been decieved by the likes of you know who, for so long, that a low priced Nvidia card that beats the ati card, must be "illegally priced", according to the little red communist overseas.
I suppose pointing that out in a fashion you and your glorious roosters don't like, is plenty reason for you to shriek "contributes nothing" and "let's ban him!"
Well, fire up your glowing red torches, and I will gladly continue to show what fools red roosters can be, and often are.
I'm so happy you linked some silicondoc post on some other forum, and we had the chance to see the deranged red rooster screech that a low priced Nvidia GTX275 is illegal.
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Good for you, you're such a big help here.
strikeback03 - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
would be nice, I was wondering when I saw this article how it could have 140 comments already, forgetting he was sure to come trolling. I've stopped reading each comment thread after he got involved, since any chance of reliable information coning out has ceased.